Discussion:
V4 power
(too old to reply)
Christopher
2005-10-06 09:43:31 UTC
Permalink
how much can a v4 handle power hp and torque wise IM thinkin of having
my v4 rebuit next summer after my chassis/ body is restored. I just
don't wanna build it up and blow my tranny up ever couple months like
i do with c-900 trannys




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Administrator
2005-10-06 09:59:23 UTC
Permalink
What mods are you considering? I think a standard tranny can cope with more
or less anything you can get out of a V4 as long as it's good. The 95/96
tranny has a much stronger ring and pinion than the Sonett and is less prone
to blowing up. I think some use the older cast-iron gear housings as they
flex less than the ribbed alloy ones. But they're heavy.
The main concern with a HiPo V4 is the fibre timing gears. Replace them with
metal ones first thing before any other mods.
Be warned, V4 mods can get very expensive depending on how far you want to
go.

Check out<http://sg.geocities.com/saab96rally/CompetitionModsV4/index.html>
for the SAAB Sport and Rally mods manual. Some of this is a little out of
date and there's other stuff that's been done since like roller rockers and
MSS's improved twin-choke inlet manifold.
Post by Christopher
how much can a v4 handle power hp and torque wise IM thinkin of having
my v4 rebuit next summer after my chassis/ body is restored. I just
don't wanna build it up and blow my tranny up ever couple months like
i do with c-900 trannys
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Christopher
2005-10-06 10:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Im not sure how high i want to go with power due to simple fact that
ive not driven my sonett III enough to be able to tell how much i
want due to frame damage. If I got a chance to drive a sonett III
with some mods vs stock i proably have better idea what im lookin for
chris
Post by Administrator
What mods are you considering? I think a standard tranny can cope with more
or less anything you can get out of a V4 as long as it's good. The 95/96
tranny has a much stronger ring and pinion than the Sonett and is less prone
to blowing up. I think some use the older cast-iron gear housings as they
flex less than the ribbed alloy ones. But they're heavy.
The main concern with a HiPo V4 is the fibre timing gears. Replace them with
metal ones first thing before any other mods.
Be warned, V4 mods can get very expensive depending on how far you want to
go.
Check
out<http://sg.geocities.com/saab96rally/CompetitionModsV4/index.html>
Post by Administrator
for the SAAB Sport and Rally mods manual. Some of this is a little out of
date and there's other stuff that's been done since like roller rockers and
MSS's improved twin-choke inlet manifold.
Post by Christopher
how much can a v4 handle power hp and torque wise IM thinkin of having
my v4 rebuit next summer after my chassis/ body is restored. I just
don't wanna build it up and blow my tranny up ever couple months like
i do with c-900 trannys
---
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Stefan Vapaa
2005-10-06 12:14:21 UTC
Permalink
<quote who="Administrator">
Post by Administrator
What mods are you considering? I think a standard tranny can cope with more
or less anything you can get out of a V4 as long as it's good.
I suspect that is accurate... Until you start in on turbocharging. As
long as you stay normally aspirated the standard tranny should suffice.
Post by Administrator
The main concern with a HiPo V4 is the fibre timing gears. Replace them with
metal ones first thing before any other mods.
True, but these are not so much a big deal in terms of power, except that
HP is directly related to RPM. The fiber gears can handle all the power
of a Hi-Po V4, just not the RPMs that comes along with the deal. Also,
they are getting older (and weaker) as we speak.
Post by Administrator
Check
out<http://sg.geocities.com/saab96rally/CompetitionModsV4/index.html>
for the SAAB Sport and Rally mods manual. Some of this is a little out of
date and there's other stuff that's been done since like roller rockers and
MSS's improved twin-choke inlet manifold.
Roller rockers don't buy you anything in this application and are a waste
of money and even a detriment to the performance. They are heavier than
the stock rockers where it matters. Talk to Chris Moberg on this, he's
exhaustively researched the subject.

The best of both worlds (performanace and durability) would be a stock
rocker arm fitted with a needle bearing on the rocker shaft pivot. But if
you are handy with tools, replacement stock rocker shafts and rockers are
relatively cheap. I just found entier assemblies on parts.com for $67 a
side.
Ford Service Part # E9RZ-6563-A for the V6 assembly to cut down to fit a V4.

~120 hp is about all you should expect for a street Hi-Po V4. More than
that, and parts/fabrication start getting exotic.

The chassis has no problem handling the power though. The transmission
will be fine just so long as you are decently talented at keeping shock
loading from clutch and off-on throttle applications to a reasonable
level.

And change the gear oil reguarly.

-STEFAN
http://www.at-speed.com


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Andrew Peterson
2005-10-06 15:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Administrator
What mods are you considering? I think a standard tranny can cope with more
or less anything you can get out of a V4 as long as it's good. The 95/96
tranny has a much stronger ring and pinion than the Sonett and is less prone
to blowing up. I think some use the older cast-iron gear housings as they
flex less than the ribbed alloy ones. But they're heavy.
The original V-4 transmissions ('67-8) did not have the ribs on the
case. The first I was aware of those was in the Sonetts. Although I
think they eventually made their way into the sedans, I'm not sure
when. The cast iron case for the 4-speed was a competition department
item that was never used in production. They're rare as hens teeth.

The old three-speed boxes were cast iron, but they're not
interchangable with the 4-speed, i.e., you can't take the guts out of
a 4-speed and put them into one of those 3-speed cases and run it with
a V-4. For one thing, the flange where the bell housing casting bolts
up is different.

My concern with transmissions and added power are more with the
bearings and gears. All new bearings would be wise in an old
transmission of unknown use, and most importantly for any
93/95/96/Sonett transmission, keep the oil clean. Every old-timer SAAB
mechanic I ever talked to was adamant about changing it every 6 months.
Post by Administrator
The main concern with a HiPo V4 is the fibre timing gears. Replace them with
metal ones first thing before any other mods.
I ran my '67 V-4 for several years with the original fiber gears after
adding the 3/4 cam and the 28/36 DCD Weber carb and never had any
problem. I could easily pull 70 mph in third gear, and felt like there
was something left. Of course, as with big Fords and Chevies with the
four-barrel wide open, I couldn't run like that for long without
stopping at a gas station. But as long as I drove without stuffing my
foot to the floor, I had more power and got better gas mileage than
with the stock cam and original Solex carb.

The thing I'd be more concerned about with the increased power and
potentially higher rpms would be the bottom end rod bolts. There is a
replacement rod bolt, but I don't have the number handy. It's a
standard Ford part.
Post by Administrator
Be warned, V4 mods can get very expensive depending on how far you want to
go.
Any mods that you decide to make, I would talk to Jack Lawrence about
what you need to do to keep it together. Keeping it all together is
more important than having gobs of power.

Years ago I was in on a conversation with a guy who had just bought a
Can-Am car. He said that you could build your car to try to beat the
McLarens, and usually break, or you could build the car to finish, and
as far back as tenth you'd still make at least enough prize money to
pay your expenses for the weekend. He'd switched over to Can-Am from a
Continental car (pro Formula-A series) because the prize stucture in
Continental paid almost all the money to the first place car, and if
you were back in the pack you didn't even make enough to pay for the
weekend's lodging.

Andy in PDX OR


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Stefan Vapaa
2005-10-06 15:58:50 UTC
Permalink
<quote who="Andrew Peterson">
Post by Andrew Peterson
The thing I'd be more concerned about with the increased power and
potentially higher rpms would be the bottom end rod bolts. There is a
replacement rod bolt, but I don't have the number handy. It's a
standard Ford part.
ARP part # 154-6002
Ford 289-302
Std rod bolt kit
http://www.arp-bolts.com/

Enough for two motors.

-STEFAN
http://www.at-speed.com


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Dave Shindle
2005-10-06 13:57:11 UTC
Permalink
I ran a 120hp V4 in my streetcar Sonett for 10 years.
It ate several transmissions, clutches, fiber gears
and even the splines off the wheel hubs once when I
jumped on it hard. The drivetrain is not horsepower
friendly.

For the $ it'd cost to build a motor like I had, you
can buy a complete turbo import ricer tuner-car driver
with an abundunce of available spares and still be
quicker than the Saab would ever be.




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Bill Tubbs
2005-10-06 15:09:40 UTC
Permalink
But it wouldn't be a .... SAAB.

-----Original Message-----
From: vSAAB-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:vSAAB-***@public.gmane.org]On Behalf Of
Dave Shindle
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:57 AM
To: vSAAB-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [vSAAB] V4 power


I ran a 120hp V4 in my streetcar Sonett for 10 years.
It ate several transmissions, clutches, fiber gears
and even the splines off the wheel hubs once when I
jumped on it hard. The drivetrain is not horsepower
friendly.

For the $ it'd cost to build a motor like I had, you
can buy a complete turbo import ricer tuner-car driver
with an abundunce of available spares and still be
quicker than the Saab would ever be.



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Lester Ewing
2005-10-06 15:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Let's put it this way, jack l doesn't use a SAAB tranny i his car now
that he has serious horespower. Granted, he has several reasons for
doing this but it is true.

Lester
Post by Dave Shindle
I ran a 120hp V4 in my streetcar Sonett for 10 years.
It ate several transmissions, clutches, fiber gears
and even the splines off the wheel hubs once when I
jumped on it hard. The drivetrain is not horsepower
friendly.
For the $ it'd cost to build a motor like I had, you
can buy a complete turbo import ricer tuner-car driver
with an abundunce of available spares and still be
quicker than the Saab would ever be.
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Jason
2005-10-06 15:26:11 UTC
Permalink
I run a 165bhp 16v 900T as my daily driver. It cost me around $600 and goes
like hell without any problems. I still want to spend $4000 or more on my 95
V4 to make it go faster and look good. It will be noisier, a worse ride and
more unreliable, but way cooler. You pay your money, you take your choice.

Anyone got a spare $4000 they want to donate to a worthy cause?

Sounds like you were hammering your Sonett. It's not how much horsepower you
have, it's rapid application of torque that kill things. More considered use
of the clutch means less chance of destroying anything in the drivtrain.
Post by Dave Shindle
I ran a 120hp V4 in my streetcar Sonett for 10 years.
It ate several transmissions, clutches, fiber gears
and even the splines off the wheel hubs once when I
jumped on it hard. The drivetrain is not horsepower
friendly.
For the $ it'd cost to build a motor like I had, you
can buy a complete turbo import ricer tuner-car driver
with an abundunce of available spares and still be
quicker than the Saab would ever be.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Andrew Peterson
2005-10-06 15:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher
how much can a v4 handle power hp and torque wise IM thinkin of having
my v4 rebuit next summer after my chassis/ body is restored. I just
don't wanna build it up and blow my tranny up ever couple months like
i do with c-900 trannys
The engine can handle the power increase; its one of those tractor
engines converted to car use, like the TR-2/3/4 engines.

The transmission might not.

Andy in PDX OR



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~jam
2005-10-09 14:32:57 UTC
Permalink
I went pretty far with my v4 there are several one off mods in it, im
unsure on the actual horse power but i do know it will go as fast as
you want it to at nearly any time . in doing some extreeme acceleration
testing (drag racing) i found the clutch to be the weak link , i used
every stock one i had and after a few runs it started failing under the
load the engine put on it ( chip has a fix but im waiting on $) as it
only becomes an issue when your chasing a clock.

since i have the personal experiance of poping the clutch at 3k and
letting her rip , i think the tranny and all other running gear (
assuming its not worn) is fine

I do have a welded freewheel and some additional engine bracing as it
seems to want to jump out of the car when you this sort of a thing
Post by Andrew Peterson
Post by Christopher
how much can a v4 handle power hp and torque wise IM thinkin of having
my v4 rebuit next summer after my chassis/ body is restored. I just
don't wanna build it up and blow my tranny up ever couple months like
i do with c-900 trannys
The engine can handle the power increase; its one of those tractor
engines converted to car use, like the TR-2/3/4 engines.
The transmission might not.
Andy in PDX OR
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s***@public.gmane.org
2005-10-07 03:13:20 UTC
Permalink
You want power and reliability? Call Bud Clark and have hime build you a
turbo, intercooled, fuel injected engine like I had in my 73 Sonett III. He
claimed it was bulletproof to 7000 RPM and made 175 HP at 10 pounds of boost. The
car was extremely driveable and if SAAB had put an engine of this type into the
Sonett, they would have sold a ton of them.
0 to 60 in 6 seconds. I never had a transmission problem, even racing it a
Lime Rock.
This was a car the Bud put together for Walter Kern and when Walter stopped
driving, he sold it to me. Ask Bruce Turk about it. He drove it once and was
amazed at the performance and driveability.

Dave

Sonetts #19, 219 and a bunch more plus Quantum V
Andrew Peterson
2005-10-07 03:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
You want power and reliability? Call Bud Clark and have hime build you
a turbo, intercooled, fuel injected engine like I had in my 73 Sonett
III. He claimed it was bulletproof to 7000 RPM and made 175 HP at 10
pounds of boost. The car was extremely driveable and if SAAB had put an
engine of this type into the Sonett, they would have sold a ton of them.
I think SAAB could have sold more Sonetts if they had produced them,
but they limited production, which hasn't done a thing toward making
the remaining ones more valuable.

Of course the V-4 platform was rather dated by the time the Sonett III
came out, what with the introduction of the 99 the year before, even
though they kept producing them for Europe for several more years.

Andy in PDX OR


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Jim Williams
2005-10-07 04:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Peterson
I think SAAB could have sold more Sonetts if they had produced them,
but they limited production, which hasn't done a thing toward making
the remaining ones more valuable.
Didn't I read in one of the SAAB books that they limited production
to 2,500 per year NOT because they were trying to make them more
valuable, but because that was all the bodies that ASJ (or whoever it
was) was willing to make? Seem to remember that their real business
was railcars and making Sonett bodies was just kind of a nuisance
sideline for them.



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Christopher
2005-10-07 05:37:55 UTC
Permalink
how much would that cost to make it a turbo v4 and would it require
an engine rebuild ?
chris
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
You want power and reliability? Call Bud Clark and have hime
build you a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
turbo, intercooled, fuel injected engine like I had in my 73
Sonett III. He
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
claimed it was bulletproof to 7000 RPM and made 175 HP at 10
pounds of boost. The
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
car was extremely driveable and if SAAB had put an engine of this type into the
Sonett, they would have sold a ton of them.
0 to 60 in 6 seconds. I never had a transmission problem, even
racing it a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Lime Rock.
This was a car the Bud put together for Walter Kern and when
Walter stopped
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
driving, he sold it to me. Ask Bruce Turk about it. He drove it once and was
amazed at the performance and driveability.
Dave
Sonetts #19, 219 and a bunch more plus Quantum V
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